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No, I won't read your fucking story.
Do I have your attention, LOL?
Inspired by a post from![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
minerva_one, who ganked it from cleolinda, let's take a look at why screenwriter Josh Olson has declared I Will Not Read Your Fucking Script.
Please make sure you at least read the original article before continuing.
Frankly, I am firmly in both Olson andcleolinda's camps. Most people that approach professional writers in whatever field with pieces of their epic master works *are* just looking for glorified pats on the back. They don't want to hear the truth about their work, or the fact that their writer friends can't get them an 'in' with their agent/publisher/whatever. I mean, WTF? How do these people think those writers got their jobs in the first place? Of all the possible professions on the planet, I think writing is probably the one that benefits the LEAST from networking. Its a very solitary job, in more aspects than one.
As tocleolinda's dilemma, which minerva_one touches on in her post...well, the way I see it, we fanfic writers face the same conundrum. Though I've never received such, quite a few people in fandom have gotten the sort of "I love your story will you read and review AND RLY RLY CRIT mine? Here's the link OMGTHANX" non-review on a piece they've posted. Besides being fucking annoying (and disrespectful, especially when its obvious said reviewer didn't actually read your fic), its also treading into dangerous territory. How many wars have erupted in fandom over the "stealing of ideas"?
But wait, you protest. This is fanfic we're writing - we're already stealing ideas, from the original source material. After all, isn't that like the biggest criticism fanwriters face? ("Why can't/don't you write original stuff instead? Are you LAZY, or just unwilling?") I'd argue - no, its not. At least in IY fandom, there are a million different ways to "continue" the canon story, or endless possibilities for AUs. I understand we have a different level of acceptance from other fandoms, especially of the latter. I dabble quite a bit in AUs myself, not because I'm not interested in the original canon, but because I am really enjoying the core characteristics of the main cast, and would like to see how they fare in a different setting, most usually modern.
Anyway - when you write an AU, the idea is most generally original: the setting, the plot, sometimes even the pairings. Yes, we have tropes (*groan* geez, do we ever!) but everyone worth their salt at least attempts to put an original spin on it. I think anyone would be upset if they found someone 'stealing' their idea - I know I was, at the first inkling that someone would rip off all the world-building I'd done for something that sounded completely inane. And, IMO, that would be justifiable.
But - getting back to the heart ofcleolinda's comment - I wonder how much people realize they are influenced by what they read, watch, or listen to. I know I'm extremely paranoid about 'sub-conscious plagiarism', and thus, I tend to read very little in comparison to my output as a fanfic writer. One of the reasons I *am* so paranoid is because I can see the reflection of other multimedia in my work - what I've been watching, for example - that isn't always intentional.
To me, its not quite as big a deal when fanfic is the medium I'm working in. Style is flexible, and generally the stories rewarded with reviews, hits, and awards are those that stick very close to the norm for either canon or fanon. Clever little in-jokes, or bringing in something from another popular show, is something astute readers can get real kicks out of, and is something that can help boost the popularity of a fic or author. And besides, sometimes its intentional - I know different types of music lead to different types of fic (I listen to DMB for sex scenes, and Rage Against the Machine when I'm jonesing for some action/adventure), and I really enjoy writing straight-out songfic. I tend to immerse myself in investigative or true crime shows when I'm writing darkfic. I know the source of my research material when I'm aiming for a certain outcome.
And that? To me, that's fine. After all, what do writers do, other than redirect one type of media into another?
But when it comes to reading...I'm a bit tougher on myself.
I don't ever want to be put in the position of, "you stole my idea!" I'd never intentionally do that. Hell, I feel skeezy writing fic that's too close to the manga or anime (as in, lifting dialogue or particular action sequences). I've read my share of amazing fic, and if I know I got a certain bit from a fic, I'm going to credit that fic from here to eternity - like I did when lifting the title "House of the Moon" from Resmiranda's Tales from the House of the Moon in my Every Heart fic.
What I'm afraid of is not realizing that I've lifted something from someone else's work. Lines of dialogue especially stick with me (as anybody with an affinity for Grey's Anatomy who read the latest chapter of Fleeting can readily attest), though sometimes particularly impressive stylistic choices can as well.
So - I've found that I tend to read material by authors who have very different ideas and styles from mine (generally, writers I find on par with or better than my own material). For example - its neat to have the mind-meld withpsyco_chick32, but we tend to play with different characters - -who would, in turn, react in different ways to the same situation, and thus our fics would probably have wildly different outcomes even if they started from the same place.
Its a delicate balance, you know? Reading enough to know what's well-established and popular, but not reading so much that you're subconsciously lifting a style, or idea, or line of dialogue from someone else.
Fandom has a culture of shared ideas, so to some extent, its more acceptable for fanwork to maybe not be as original as original/professional fiction. I know I approach the two different situations completely differently. I don't have my fanfic beta'ed (GASP HORROR), but if I ever gathered up the nerve to send off original fiction for publication, I'd at least have a second pair of eyes look at it first...eyes I trusted implicitly, as there's a HUGE deal with passing around unpublished fiction and the ability you have to protect your intellectual property.
So in the midst of all my rambles, I'm asking my f-list a very general set of questions: how much do you read fanfiction, outside your own work and/or circle of friends? Do you tend to favor work that is very much like yours (in pairing, genre, tropes/cliches used), or do you find yourself reading work by someone who writes something outside your comfort zone? How much do you fear subconscious plagiarism, if at all? Are you even aware of how much your perception of the media around you influences your work? Do you care?
Inspired by a post from
minerva_one, who ganked it from cleolinda, let's take a look at why screenwriter Josh Olson has declared I Will Not Read Your Fucking Script.Please make sure you at least read the original article before continuing.
Frankly, I am firmly in both Olson and
cleolinda's camps. Most people that approach professional writers in whatever field with pieces of their epic master works *are* just looking for glorified pats on the back. They don't want to hear the truth about their work, or the fact that their writer friends can't get them an 'in' with their agent/publisher/whatever. I mean, WTF? How do these people think those writers got their jobs in the first place? Of all the possible professions on the planet, I think writing is probably the one that benefits the LEAST from networking. Its a very solitary job, in more aspects than one.As to
cleolinda's dilemma, which minerva_one touches on in her post...well, the way I see it, we fanfic writers face the same conundrum. Though I've never received such, quite a few people in fandom have gotten the sort of "I love your story will you read and review AND RLY RLY CRIT mine? Here's the link OMGTHANX" non-review on a piece they've posted. Besides being fucking annoying (and disrespectful, especially when its obvious said reviewer didn't actually read your fic), its also treading into dangerous territory. How many wars have erupted in fandom over the "stealing of ideas"?But wait, you protest. This is fanfic we're writing - we're already stealing ideas, from the original source material. After all, isn't that like the biggest criticism fanwriters face? ("Why can't/don't you write original stuff instead? Are you LAZY, or just unwilling?") I'd argue - no, its not. At least in IY fandom, there are a million different ways to "continue" the canon story, or endless possibilities for AUs. I understand we have a different level of acceptance from other fandoms, especially of the latter. I dabble quite a bit in AUs myself, not because I'm not interested in the original canon, but because I am really enjoying the core characteristics of the main cast, and would like to see how they fare in a different setting, most usually modern.
Anyway - when you write an AU, the idea is most generally original: the setting, the plot, sometimes even the pairings. Yes, we have tropes (*groan* geez, do we ever!) but everyone worth their salt at least attempts to put an original spin on it. I think anyone would be upset if they found someone 'stealing' their idea - I know I was, at the first inkling that someone would rip off all the world-building I'd done for something that sounded completely inane. And, IMO, that would be justifiable.
But - getting back to the heart of
cleolinda's comment - I wonder how much people realize they are influenced by what they read, watch, or listen to. I know I'm extremely paranoid about 'sub-conscious plagiarism', and thus, I tend to read very little in comparison to my output as a fanfic writer. One of the reasons I *am* so paranoid is because I can see the reflection of other multimedia in my work - what I've been watching, for example - that isn't always intentional.To me, its not quite as big a deal when fanfic is the medium I'm working in. Style is flexible, and generally the stories rewarded with reviews, hits, and awards are those that stick very close to the norm for either canon or fanon. Clever little in-jokes, or bringing in something from another popular show, is something astute readers can get real kicks out of, and is something that can help boost the popularity of a fic or author. And besides, sometimes its intentional - I know different types of music lead to different types of fic (I listen to DMB for sex scenes, and Rage Against the Machine when I'm jonesing for some action/adventure), and I really enjoy writing straight-out songfic. I tend to immerse myself in investigative or true crime shows when I'm writing darkfic. I know the source of my research material when I'm aiming for a certain outcome.
And that? To me, that's fine. After all, what do writers do, other than redirect one type of media into another?
But when it comes to reading...I'm a bit tougher on myself.
I don't ever want to be put in the position of, "you stole my idea!" I'd never intentionally do that. Hell, I feel skeezy writing fic that's too close to the manga or anime (as in, lifting dialogue or particular action sequences). I've read my share of amazing fic, and if I know I got a certain bit from a fic, I'm going to credit that fic from here to eternity - like I did when lifting the title "House of the Moon" from Resmiranda's Tales from the House of the Moon in my Every Heart fic.
What I'm afraid of is not realizing that I've lifted something from someone else's work. Lines of dialogue especially stick with me (as anybody with an affinity for Grey's Anatomy who read the latest chapter of Fleeting can readily attest), though sometimes particularly impressive stylistic choices can as well.
So - I've found that I tend to read material by authors who have very different ideas and styles from mine (generally, writers I find on par with or better than my own material). For example - its neat to have the mind-meld with
psyco_chick32, but we tend to play with different characters - -who would, in turn, react in different ways to the same situation, and thus our fics would probably have wildly different outcomes even if they started from the same place. Its a delicate balance, you know? Reading enough to know what's well-established and popular, but not reading so much that you're subconsciously lifting a style, or idea, or line of dialogue from someone else.
Fandom has a culture of shared ideas, so to some extent, its more acceptable for fanwork to maybe not be as original as original/professional fiction. I know I approach the two different situations completely differently. I don't have my fanfic beta'ed (GASP HORROR), but if I ever gathered up the nerve to send off original fiction for publication, I'd at least have a second pair of eyes look at it first...eyes I trusted implicitly, as there's a HUGE deal with passing around unpublished fiction and the ability you have to protect your intellectual property.
So in the midst of all my rambles, I'm asking my f-list a very general set of questions: how much do you read fanfiction, outside your own work and/or circle of friends? Do you tend to favor work that is very much like yours (in pairing, genre, tropes/cliches used), or do you find yourself reading work by someone who writes something outside your comfort zone? How much do you fear subconscious plagiarism, if at all? Are you even aware of how much your perception of the media around you influences your work? Do you care?
no subject
First, I actually only half agree with Olson. I agree with his assessment of writers; I agree with how hard it is to say no to somebody, to put somebody down.
But I think because of my love of getting constructive criticism... I always, always want to read other peoples' work. Beta-ing, chivvying my friends to write more (*whistles*) and just... well, reading a shit-ton. Even if it's painful (grammatically, spelling, etc.) - I love watching ideas grow. I love following a plot bunny from tinny little cute thing to vicious, huge rampaging Godzilla creature. And I think... I love to encourage (people that deserve it! Crap!fics need not apply, LOL - I do have SOME limits!) and offer CC. Does it get me burned? Constantly. But it also, I feel, helps me as a writer.
Hell, I feel skeezy writing fic that's too close to the manga or anime (as in, lifting dialogue or particular action sequences).
>.>
<.<
*shiftshift*
(And yet you like Control????
its neat to have the mind-meld with
\o/ Long live the mind-meld!!!
I think this would be really fun. Have somebody give us a fairly decent prompt (more than one word, maybe a sentence or a situation) and then see where we take it individually, LOL
how much do you read fanfiction, outside your own work and/or circle of friends?
Actually... a whole lot. A lot of people (even my f-list) would be shocked at the amount I read... at what I read. And I could numerate the reasons for hours, but I think it comes down to this: I like to know what people are doing. My goal, in all of my writing, is to be as unique as possible. Oh sure, I love my cliches and stuff... but when it comes to plot, I want to stand out... in a positive manner. I want to be that "unique" person while keeping it in the realm of logical.
To do that, I have to do a lot of looking at what other people are doing.
Then again, it also gives me ideas. I read something that I really like... in theory. But it's badly pulled off, or somebody dropped the ball somewhere. I like to take that idea back to the beginning and end up with something totally different (hell, like with Control... I just found myself asking 'What if Kikyou never died?')
However, I think there's a big difference. When I'm reading other works, I rarely (though it does happen occasionally) feel like I'm personally involved in a story. When it's somebody on my f-list, when it's somebody I beta for or adore, I feel closer to it. I want my friends, more even than me, to succeed and be well-accepted.
Do you tend to favor work that is very much like yours (in pairing, genre, tropes/cliches used), or do you find yourself reading work by someone who writes something outside your comfort zone?
Well, pairings yes. I prefer canon pairings (in IY) and a FEW Sess/Kag fics. I can't even force myself to read Inu/San, though I'd love to support
Genre doesn't tend to matter much to me - I'll read most anything and I try to write most anything, too. It's hard to say where my comfort zone lies, so it's hard to answer that question.
OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE I HIT THE COMMENT LIMIT - WILL REPLY TO THIS WITH MORE -_-;;
LONG COMMENT WAS/IS TOO LONG
To be honest, I really don't fear it all that much. Everybody is affected by stuff - what they read, what they watch, what they listen to, the way they talk... the English language is evolving but there'll always be limits. Now, I fear people taking entire paragraphs of work, but ideas and stuff... well, there's a set number of plots and tropes in the world, and eventually they'll all be used again and again.
I know for a fact that what I read, what I watch, what I listen to will affect my writing. I try to catch myself though if I'm taking a direct line or something, and change it up as much as possible.
Besides, even if I take a really good line, I have to alter it to fit a character. Rarely does a good line fit the character I want to say it -_-;;
Are you even aware of how much your perception of the media around you influences your work? Do you care?
*points up* I'm fairly aware. I care... but on a strange level. While it doesn't necessarily please me, I find it's a necessary evil. Without inspiration, I would never write - I can either avoid writing at all, or I can accept that my ideas are shaped by the things around me. As long as I don't let those ideas get out of hand, I feel good.
(Holy shit I just kept talking I'm so sorry... Long comment is long!)
no subject
And maybe that little seed of guilt is what's kept me from working on the next chapter of said fic. (Though emo!angsty!Sess does not enjoy sharing his stage, let me tell you o.O)
no subject
*grins* I think it reassures me ^_~
*snickers* There truly are differences!
no subject
LOL, what the hell do you think I just did? I came to some interesting conclusions as well, like thinking out loud. (I think I've finally realized why my stuff isn't so OMG UBER POPULAR, which is a notion I think about far more than I'd readily admit. The stuff about 'commercial appeal' in the comments of the first article also brought about that line of reasoning.)
ANYWAY...
I agree with his assessment of writers; I agree with how hard it is to say no to somebody, to put somebody down.
But I think because of my love of getting constructive criticism... I always, always want to read other peoples' work.
Well, you're the exception to the rule, as someone who craves real concrit for her work. The vast majority of fanwriters just want the glory. I agree with Olson because I can so easily put myself in his shoes, which is what brought about the second topic of conversation, in relation to
And, if you were a professional, published original fiction writer of any sort, even accepting unsolicited manuscripts could get you into deep shit. Its why I understand those authors who don't tolerate fanfic are coming from. Anytime I see a secret about "OMG I'D TOTES BE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FANDOM FOR MY BOOK" over at
I don't think writers who turn away wannabes are being dickwads. I think they're just being practical, and covering their own asses.
And yet you like Control????
When the entire point of the fic is to rewrite the story, LOL yes, I'm fine with writing close to the manga. To do otherwise would be defeating the point of the exercise, no?
But I personally feel skeezy when I'M the one doing the writing that close to canon. It feels like cheating, in a way; I guess because that's the evolution of fanwork: you start close to the source and move out with each new piece. Like, copying someone else's style until it develops into your own sorta thing.
My goal, in all of my writing, is to be as unique as possible. Oh sure, I love my cliches and stuff... but when it comes to plot, I want to stand out... in a positive manner.
Well, of course - you have to read the genre you're trying to write; that's just common sense. I suppose we have two different approaches on the matter - you read everything in sight, I just hope for the best and search specifically, to make sure I'm not doing something that's been done to death before.
But with fanfic, the rules are relaxed. The idea-sharing culture we have in fandom is not something that's shared in the professional writing community, as far as I can see. (Admittedly, my experience only extends to the romance genres, so YMMV.)
When I'm reading other works, I rarely (though it does happen occasionally) feel like I'm personally involved in a story.
LOL, and that's what I *look for* in a good story - something that's going to draw me in and engage my senses. It only makes sense; I am a very emotive writer, and I'm the first to admit it :)
I can't even force myself to read Inu/San, though I'd love to support
Which is a shame, cause its a damn fine fic. Its not as Inu/San as you think (or fear).
no subject
It's sad being like that - because I rarely get any :(
LOL Is why I have a beta - I need somebody to beat me with a bat when I'm bein' stupid!!
What he's saying is, if they're going to think you're a dick anyway for not going OMGILUVIT in response to their work, why not just save yourself the hassle and tell them no right off the bat? The outcome is the same, either way.
Oh, I understand that. I just happen to throw out my opinion whether people like it or not ^_~ If they don't like it, then I can at least feel like I tried!
I'm also a really fast reader, so that may have something to do with it.
And, if you were a professional, published original fiction writer of any sort, even accepting unsolicited manuscripts could get you into deep shit.
Oh, if I were a prof. writer, I'd be telling people to kiss my ass.
(Well, except for friends. Because then I could beat them with sticks if they tried shit with me.)
Like, copying someone else's style until it develops into your own sorta thing.
I think this is the fun thing about having Control to write in relation to The Neighbor, Eight-Fold Path and Ride On! because... I am doing a wide variety, and I like seeing how well I can change my tone. Can I write in a very RT-esque manner? Can I make myself more relaxed for the funnier fics? It's a great challenge for me - especially as a journalist by trade. Being able to jump from style to style is extra-important to me.
I suppose we have two different approaches on the matter - you read everything in sight
LOL This has SEVERELY slacked since I started in the MMPR-verse -_-;;
Hell, I just realized I'm behind on reviewing my friends' fics!
*adds to to-do list*
no subject
My inner critic is harsh enough as it is o.O Not saying I'm perfect or anything, but I don't think anybody can be harder on me than I am on myself, LOL.
then I can at least feel like I tried!
LOL, I guess that's just not worth all the anxiety that accompanies the effort, for me! There's a reason I only keep up with a selective group of authors and their work! :P
I am doing a wide variety, and I like seeing how well I can change my tone. Can I write in a very RT-esque manner? Can I make myself more relaxed for the funnier fics? It's a great challenge for me
I totally feel you on this - its why I have to be in certain "moods" to work on certain fics. Perhaps not surprisingly, the WIP least like my natural style is the one I update the slowest, but the work I put into it is totally worth it, to be satisfied with the final product :) And it does help your natural style to practice those that kinda go against your grain, you know?
Hell, I just realized I'm behind on reviewing my friends' fics!
*adds to to-do list*
No kidding! *sigh* Maybe tomorrow I can get caught up...today I was seized by an ever-elusive writing muse, one that demanded *gasp* research even!